Ep 68: Normalizing Third-Party Reproduction and Adoption with Lori Metz, LCSW, CCM, BC-TMH
Fertility Forward Epsiode 68:
Every child will eventually ask the question, “Where do babies come from?” Your answer will have a lasting impact on the way they think about what it means to be part of a family, especially if they were adopted or conceived with a donated sperm or egg, also known as third-party reproduction. Today’s guest believes that compassion, love, and honesty are critical in helping families come to greater acceptance, understanding, and celebration of their journey with third-party family building. Lori Metz is a psychotherapist, licensed clinical social worker, certified case manager, and a Board Certified TeleMental Health Provider, as well as an author and the host of the LIFE Podcast. Lori specializes in infertility and works with individuals, couples, and groups to identify what might be interfering with their ability to move forward in achieving what they want. In this episode, Lori shares some of the exciting projects she has been working on, including her recent title, I Dreamed of You: The Story of an Egg Donor Baby, and the petition she has created to normalize third-party family building in healthcare. Tuning in, you’ll learn why this initiative is essential, the emotional impact it will have on those who have built their families using this option, and how to advocate for yourself and your family, as well as a whole lot more! We hope you’ll join us.
Rena: Hi everyone. We are Rena and Dara, and welcome to Fertility Forward. We are part of the wellness team at RMA of New York, a fertility clinic affiliated with Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. Our Fertility Forward podcast brings together advice from medical professionals, mental health specialists, wellness experts, and patients because knowledge is power and you are your own best advocate.
Dara: So it's been about a year that we had Lori Metz on our podcast and we are thrilled to have her back on just as a reminder to our listeners. She is a psychotherapist and LCSW, a certified case manager, and a board certified telemental health. She specializes in fertility and works with both individuals, couples, groups, and also has held workshops which I've actually been involved in. And she's also a host of her own podcast called Life: Love, Insights, Fertility Experiences. And today we have her on to share with us a couple of big things that she's been working on. Number one, this fabulous book, which I have a copy of called I Dreamed of You: The Story of an Egg Donor Baby. And she is also here to discuss a new initiative that she is working towards to normalize third-party reproduction and adoption. And she is here to tell us about some of the events that she’s working on regarding that. So Lori, thanks for coming back on.
Lori Metz: Thank you. Thank you both. I really appreciate it. And what the two of you are doing with your podcast is phenomenal. I mean you’re bringing so much information to people. So the both of you are just doing a fabulous, fabulous job on it. You really are.
Rena: Well thank you and thank you so much for coming on and taking the time. You have your own podcast and book. We’re so grateful for you coming on our podcast. We feel very honored.
Lori Metz: I’m going to get at least one of you was on mine. The other one has to come on it. One of my first guests was Dara and that came out of our workshop, right? We were doing all this work, doing so much stuff together - I miss that! But yes, I wrote a book. I think I mentioned it last year that I was going to be writing.
Rena: I think so and it is so beautiful.
Lori Metz: Thank you. I had the most wonderful illustrator. She was fabulous to work with and very easy to work with in terms of my ideas were accepted. She had no pride and ownership necessarily even though she has total ownership of the illustrations. She just was so open and receptive to hearing what I kind of envisioned and I love that about it. And the book really came out of my practice. What happened is I started specializing in fertility awhile ago. There's somebody who you both know, Mary Kanellis, she’s an acupuncturist.
Rena: Oh yes and another podcast guest!
Lori Metz: Yes, yes and I think I mentioned, I met her on the street corner and we just started chatting one day and then she started referring fertility patients to me. And so I started working with fertility patients and it was such a wonderful experience. And my practice has really grown in fertility. That must've been 10, 11 years ago or so? It was a while ago at this point.
And so everything I've done has come out of my practice. So I work with individuals, couples, I do groups, I do workshops, I do all of these things and it's all related to fertility. So one of the things that I've noticed when it comes to third party reproduction, which would be anything related to a donor sperm, donor embryo, donor egg or even we could say talking about surrogacy, and we can talk about adoption is that many times there's a lot of feelings associated with the process and they're valid. Let's be honest, right? If you're not using your own DNA, there's a lot of feelings associated with that when it comes to raising your child or there's distinctions between surrogacy, adoption, and donor, which are obvious to people. Using the donor, sometimes you don't know. If a surrogate is carrying your child, people know that you're not pregnant and then you had a child. And if you adopt and they know when you've adopted. But all journeys are things where people should feel very normal about how they were conceived. And there's so many different ways to make a kid today and we want to make sure that people are comfortable with it. So one of the things I do in my support group is I ask women, the donor egg group specifically, is I ask women to write a story to the baby or the babies in the belly. And I do that to allow them to start the process of telling their story and becoming more comfortable with their story. It's hard. It's a hard thing to do. Which I’m sure both of you can imagine that YouTube donor conception at any level. So anyway, I feel like I'm talking so much, so in trying to help them and write the story, I wound up writing a story and that's how my book came to be. And so in the front of the book, it tells the story of dreaming to have a child and then not being able to have one and then looking around and trying to figure out how to have one. And most people on fertility journeys know that there's a lot of looking and searching that goes on to have a child. And a lot of people can get involved. Parents, friends, aunts, uncles, depending on how many people you want to tell and whether or not we want to keep this a secret or keep it private. And as we go down the fertility journey, we find that sometimes what we used to want to tell everybody we decide we want to keep a little private for a variety of reasons. People don't know what to say to us. We don't want anything you know when it becomes too serious, a lot of reasons start to nail into those things. And so this book was a way to allow people to express themselves. And in the back of the book, there's space for people to write a little note to their little one that, why they couldn’t do that so they can kind of mirror that.
It just takes the mother through the process to read the story to the baby. Initially it was just to help the people in my groups to write their own story.
Dara: Wow, that's beautiful. And I think it's a great way to help start that conversation.
Lori Metz: Yeah, it does help start the conversation. And there's a lot of books out there, not just mine and the more, the better, you know? I don't see this as competition. I see this as extra tools to give people because everybody likes a different story and everybody likes different pictures. And I try and encourage people also to write their own little story to their child and read that or tell that story every night, if they can and if they want to. There are some people who don't want to tell their children and that's their right, and that's their prerogative. And there's huge variety of reasons why people don't want to share that with their, with their children. Mostly I think religious communities don't want to share it for a lot of different reasons in terms of beliefs and culture and acceptance. But by and large, the trend today is to share it. And you're seeing that all over social media, you're seeing it with a lot donor conceived children coming out. The interesting thing though, is, you know, when we talk about donor conception, when we look at a heterosexual couple, we assume that is their DNA. When we look at any other type of a couple, we assume that it's not.
Rena: Well I want to say, I want to talk about that a little more is sort of the secrecy that can be involved and whether or not to tell a child because I know that's something patients often ask about. They don't know what to do. Should I tell them? When should I tell them? Should I tell friends and family first? What are sort of your recommendations on that?
Lori Metz: I don't have any hard and fast recommendations for anything. You know me, you know that's my style. It’s so specific to the person and to their social support system. So there is no quote unquote right or wrong here. 10 years ago, 15 years ago, doctors were telling people not to tell their children. There was no need. Life has changed drastically. Today, people are saying, tell your children. You know, there's DNA tests out there that people are going to take. There's so much on social media that it takes a lot for that person whose DNA is not part of that child to tell the story and to accept it. What I like to talk to people about, but it comes to this part of this process is that I love to tell this story actually, of Chase Johnson, who said to me, who is donor conceived and carried through traditional surrogacy, he said, when all the kids - and he was in his twenties actually - when all the kids were saying, my parents never wanted me, the one thing he knew is how much he wanted. And he never, he never doubted how much he was wanted because he knew what they went through to have him. And you find very often that people who might be interested in a donor are not interested in their donor as their parent. They might be more interested in just the DNA. But the connection between the mother and the child and the father and the child is so strong. It's really unbreakable in most situations. So in terms of telling the child, that's really up to the parent. What science is telling us is that the longer you wait, if they find out from somebody else, then that could create some feelings in the family, because then they'll start to wonder what else maybe they haven't been told, and this is part of their identity. So when you're going through a fertility journey, but it's donor conceived, there's three paths going on here. There's the path of the mother. If we're using donor egg and her journey. There's a path of the father if it's his sperm. And then there's a path of the child and they're all different. They're all experiencing this very differently. And we don't want to confuse the mothers and the fathers with the child. So if we can keep that a clear separation, I think it's a very healthy way for the child to be able to embrace how they were conceived. And that way the parents can work out their feelings associated with it. And I think it always stings a little bit at certain points in life if somebody has a donor to conceive a child. But sometimes I think that the love and the feelings that somebody has for their children overtakes it tremendously.
I've had people tell me that they're so grateful for the donor, that this child would not be here without the donor. But what I like to point out is that this child would not be here without them because they picked the time, they pick the day, they pick the partner, and they pick the whole process and they're carrying the child in their womb. And with that, I know epigenetics is thought of as a consolation prize, it is not really a consolation prize. What it is, is science saying that there is some DNA absorption there. So that’s a long-winded answer to tell you that I think everybody has to feel their own comfort zone in how they approach telling their child. I think that's really important. Science has shifted. The philosophy has shifted. The other piece that it's shown right now is that children who find out about it, find out a little bit more about the birds and the bees, so to speak at a younger age, because now they've learned that they were donor conceived and my favorite story, I hope I didn't tell you this story before, was of a child who was in nursery school or first grade, whatever it was. Parents told them they were donor conceived and they were so excited. The next day show and tell, the teacher said, who has something for show and tell? They raised their hand and they said, well, this story about being conceived through donor conception. So in terms of telling family and friends, I think that's entirely your prerogative. I think when she tell your child, you may want to tell your, your close nuclear kind of circle so that their reaction is not one of surprise. But I have people who are religious, who may tell their family and may not, who are concerned because somebody I know’s father was very involved in the church and is afraid that he won't accept it. The child's now four years old. And I don't know, they're telling the child. So I'm thinking that the father is going to find out the real father. But at this point in time that hasn't been shared by the parent or by the child of the grandfather.
Rena: No, not at all. The experience is different both for the mother, father, and the child. And I think that's a really great observation to say you're in a, in a couple where it's one parent’s DNA but then you have the donor for the other parent. So that experience is very different for each parent, right? And I think that's really important to note, you know, you work with your patients on how to look at the loss with that in each couple’s experience there because it is really different.
Lori Metz: It's really different. And the hard part I think is if it’s for the, let’s talk about the man because we don't talk about the man often enough. And there's between 30 and 60,000 sperm donations, maybe a year. I mean, that's huge that number, right? It’s voluminous. So if we talk about the man, a lot of men will not talk about this. Some will, but most will not. And it's how does the man then come to terms with, and feel comfortable with it? Because we don't really want them to push the feelings down. We want them to feel comfortable. So I'm working with one couple where they hadn't told the children, the children were already, how old are they? They're in probably 12 and 10. It was awhile ago, 12 and 10 right around there. Children didn't know, parents got divorced. So now the father's feeling very isolated because it's not his DNA There's so many dynamics that go on there, but he is the children's father. And the mother will say, he is the father of the children. It's just, how do you then begin to tell the children and make them comfortable? But you can, you can just say, we wanted to wait until you were old enough to understand. That's a fine answer to tell somebody, I don't know if they're going to start to do DNA testing in schools. I'm not sure where we're going in the world, but what I am sure of is that we need people to feel as if any type of conception is normal. And the best way to do that I think is to empower the parents with understanding that they bring these children into the world with love. And when we talk about secrecy and privacy, just to go back to what you were talking about, or you were saying to expand on a little bit - secret has this connotation to it, right? Kind of a little sinister? We’re intentionally not telling people things because maybe it would be something that would be more of a passive. I don't know, like when you think of the word secret, what do you think of?
Rena: I think a secret implies that there's something to hide which that is negative. And I think it’s screaming, there's nothing negative or wrong about being conceived via donor or having a donor be your parent. It’s just your story.
Lori Metz: Absolutely. I love that you said it that way. You couldn't put it any better. Thank you. And so privacy really just expands on that. It labels it. It's saying that we're allowed to keep things private and there's nothing wrong with privacy and people start to transition to that. I don't know. Have you noticed that in your practice that people transition to that as they go down a fertility journey?
Rena: Yes, that I think as they go on, they decide what they want to share and what they want to hold close because they realize that perhaps sharing everything with everyone just becomes too much noise. And it's not that they're ashamed of that. It's just, they realize when they tell everyone, then they have to kind of report everything. And it just becomes a little too much and very hard to stay present.
Lori Metz: Really hard to stay present. Such a beautiful way to put it. It also can elicit a lot of feelings related to what they're saying and how they're saying it. And if they're being judgmental and nobody really needs to go through that when they're grieving their own loss of having to use donor conception. I do find though on the other side of it, which is so hard to see while you're in it, that once these children are born, the parents are so in love with the children and the children are in love with the parents and there's really a lovely, lovely life that goes on and goes ahead of it. So I have been trying for the last, I don't know, a couple of years, not like full intention now with full intention, trying to normalize this process for people, because I have found that so many parents struggle with telling the doctor or telling the child or how they're looked at in society. And it breaks my heart to be honest with you, that people have to go through this and the journey when every conception should be normal. And I'm sorry if I'm repeating that, but that is really the truth. And so I find that people I've worked with will not tell their pediatrician if the children were born donor conception. They will forget to tell them. The doctors and the nurses will not ask. When children go for college applications, they ask for family history. It says, mother, father, sibling, other. People are not others. Everybody's conceived a certain way, right? We’re all conceived the same way it takes sperm and egg and a uterus.That's it. Bottom line. We all are conceived that way. So what's the difference how exactly that process took place? If we can start to add this and normalize the process, I think at least in the medical intake, then we can start the conversation. And so I've started this initiative, which I'm excited about. I think it's even bigger than I imagined, but that I think we can do it because it's almost like a light bulb has gone off in people's heads when I mention it. And we've done a series of Instagram Lives the last five weeks or so on it. Camille Dante, who's an actress who's incredible. She's just phenomenal. I can't even begin to tell you - spokesperson and advocate for donor conception. I reached out to her to tell her about it and she actually wants to lend her voice to this. And so that was a huge, huge win for me because then I felt like I had the support there. And Jay Wonder Woman, Jay Palumbo, who is a huge advocate also has been involved and Resolve is involved right now in a webinar that we're doing. And Dr. Serena H. Chin is involved in it and a couple of other people. We have a doctor who works with transgender and we have a donor conception. He'll be at the first webinar, which will be next Thursday. The goal here is to add it to intake. Why? Because we need to be able to be sure that people get the best medical care and feel as if they could be comfortable and not embarrassed about how they're conceived. So it will enhance both the physical and mental health of the patient. There's a place to put it. So when it says mother, father, sibling, it can say donor, and it can say adoption. It fills in the picture right off the bat. And now not only does it fill in the picture for the person completing the form, but it fills in the picture for those who have no idea about different kinds of conception because now they see it on the form. So now there's a conversation, oh, ok. It's there. It's out there. It'll start to normalize it. And so that's how I felt I wanted to start this conversation. I also worked in health insurance for many years and I've been involved in electronic medical record. So I know it's only two indices that need to be changed. And so it shouldn't be hard to do. I think what happened is that they sent the medical records down and it just wasn't thought of at the time. And now it's just a matter of adding it.
Dara: It’s a matter of updating.
Rena: Yeah. And I think it's similar to adding, you know, the gender pronoun. That's hopefully just letting people own who they are and be more comfortable with who they are instead of sitting there, you know, staring blankly like this doesn't fit me. I don't know what to do. There's no box that works for me. So I love that.
Lori Metz: I know I was talking to this mom and her kid was filling out an application for college and he came over. He's like, yeah, you're still excited when you're filling out your college applications. It may not have phased him, honestly, but he had to put in other and she said, what should I write? And she said, just write other adopted. He’s got two loving parents who are crazy about him. Why couldn't he just check off adopted and then there’d be a non-issue there
Rena: I love that you're doing. What an important initiative that I think will hopefully help people just feel so much better. You know, I think people that are conceived via donor, nothing to hide. And so that will hopefully help to normalize it and to paint a more comprehensive picture of somebody.
Lori Metz: Absolutely. I really, I really...I have the chills repeat it back. Cause I do believe that. We have a petition - just give a little plug petition - it’s on change.org it’s on on normalizing third party reproduction and adoption. And it's also on my Instagram link page or is that the LinkedIn on Instagram? It's also on that. And so the goal here is to get enough signatures and bring it to, and then have people follow up in terms of maybe letter writing and just grass roots, telling the doctors, start to say, why don't you add this to the form? Let's have this conversation and let's just try and get this started. So the book and this initiative kind of came out of my practice because the goal here is for people to have questions answered and to feel good about themselves and to feel good about how they conceived their child and how that child is conceived and how that child is raised.
Dara: It's wonderful that you're listening to your patients and trying to help them meet their needs.
Lori Metz: You do the same thing. I mean, I know you do. I know both of you do because I know the two of you. We have to listen. I feel very lucky to be able to have been able to take these steps in response to what they're presenting.
Rena: I love that. I feel like later in life, I heard the term fitting out instead of fitting in. And it wasn't until really, you know, my thirties, I realized like I don't really fit in. I fit out and I was able to fully embrace that, raising my daughter. I just, I never want her to feel how I felt like never really fitting in and on the fringe, whatever, however that impacted me. So I hope that adding this stuff to forms will help people embrace fitting out. You know, there's no one size fits all for humans. We're all different and unique and individual and that's what makes us beautiful. And to make people fit into boxes I think it's so limiting. So I just love that you're doing that. And hopefully this will really help people be able to embrace being unique and different and be proud of that.
Lori Metz: Right, and just to carry it a step further. And I'm sorry that you felt that way growing up, nobody deserves to feel that way because it's, it's not a comfortable feeling. What I'm hoping is that we don't look at it as not normal. We just look at it as another.
Rena: It just is. That's my story.
Dara: And also it's brought you to where you are today and that’s such a gift in itself.
Rena: And Lori you’re such a therapist to say I’m sorry but you know what? I’m not sorry. I wouldn’t change anything. It made me who I am so thank you but I’m not sorry. It’s totally made me who I am.
Lori Metz: Yeah I think everybody's journey is really great. Sometimes we need a little perspective to see that I said that.
Dara: Pause and perspective.
Lori Metz: I said that to a couple the other day, while we were talking, I said, just need to take a breath. I hadn't used my like favorite term with them. Right? And I had said, we just need to take a beat, need to pause, gain some perspective. I hadn't said that to them yet? Oh my goodness. What was I thinking?
Rena: And also I wanted to give a shout, out a plug. I believe you're on your Instagram Live, we are having one of our fellow doctors at RMA meet with you, I believe? Is it, is it in the coming week?
Lori Metz: Yes, it is. It is Thursday. Dr. Tia Jackson- Bey will be on. She's actually going to be on a podcast also that I did which should be coming out shortly. And we talked about diversity.
Rena: Oh yeah.
Lori Metz: Yeah. She was great. So we had a whole conversation about diversity and that podcast is going to be coming out shortly. And the Instagram live is going to be on this coming Thursday and it will be on normalizing third party reproduction and adoption. And she just was so embracing of the idea and the topic. So, I'm really grateful for that. And I'm hoping that she'll continue to be really involved.
Rena: Yes. I love when worlds collide.
Lori Metz: Yes. They have to. You have to make them collide on every level. It’s important. And fertility is a really important issue because people feel so alone and so isolated. So when we can do that, you know, and you do that all day long at work. I know you do cause I know your patients love you. I talk to them. I hear from them. I think that we have to have them collide because that way there's not that isolation and those feelings, that feeling of being alone.
Rena: Sure. And I know, you know, Dara and I frequently talk about how grateful we are to be in this space and meet other like-minded professionals to really care, who I think for the three of us, I can certainly speak to, this isn't just a job, but it's our career. And we really care. And I think it’s something that so many people, you know, like Dr. Jackson-Bey, you know all the kind of common people in the space we want to have people that just care and we really just want to help people.
Lori Metz: I really agree. And I also find with a lot of the healthcare professionals, especially you and Dara, I find it’s not, and even with the books, it's not a competition. It's just, it's a coming together that you see in this field. Let's see how we can all work together to help as many people as we can because everybody has a different shoe size and everybody needs something to refer to and call upon.
Rena: Exactly. The more the merrier. We have such awesome colleagues to refer to and call upon. I think it’s awesome.
Lori Metz: It truly is. It truly is. So for anybody out there really who is conceiving or considering conceiving through donor conception, whether it be, you know, sperm or egg or embryo or using a surrogate, I really encourage you to please write your story. And with adoption also, it's a different story, but write your story and own it. Feel good about it and recognize that you are traveling down a path that is filled with love. And even though you think, well, why did I have to struggle? You just know how committed you are to raising this family. And that in itself is just a wonder and a joy. And it's a privilege to be able to meet everybody who goes through this.
So write your story, own it, feel good about it. And then when you feel good about it and you tell your, your child about it, they'll feel good about it too.
Rena: I love that. It's exactly that. It's how you write the dialogue. You know, you tell your child, you are conceived with love and pride and we worked so hard for you. That's what they know. You know, and that dialogue, you can write. But if you tell a child like you weren't wanted and you were a mistake and that's what they'll know, and that doesn't feel good. So I think we are in control of that dialogue and we can write such beautiful stories and help children know they were loved and wanted and, and secure. And so that's very much in our control. And I know patients often struggle with worrying their kids won’t feel connected, but just show them love.
That's what children respond to.
Lori Metz: Well the DNA is not what makes a mother or a father. The DNA builds the house. It does not create a home. It doesn't create that love and that warmth. And when you see children who are donor conceived, if you happen to know that they are, you don't see anything different than a very loving, connected child to the parent. Have you had this, Rena? I've had people say to me that they would never ever give the child back. They love the child. They adore the child that was donor conceived. They're grateful for the donor. And they wouldn't really change a thing.
Rena: Oh sure people always say the same thing. It was a child they were meant to have and they never look back.
Lori Metz: Yeah. And that's really the overarching feeling and thought that I have. There's a lot of books out there. There's a lot of research out there on donor conception and the journey in the past that people take. I do find that, I know I mentioned this before, I do find this interesting now that when it comes to the heterosexual community, this is a challenging path, more so than the LGBTQ+ community. Well I think for hetero couples, it's not usually anyone's vision or plan that they need a donor. So you, it's a shock, right? Whereas if you are in an LGBTQ+ couple, then you know, for one side, whether it's sperm or egg, you'll need a donor. So you've at least planned for that. I agree with you. And so the other piece, a thousand percent, the other piece of that, too, that I would add is that society doesn't expect you when you're a heterosexual couple, and your parents don't expect you to have to use a donor conception.
Rena: I think society doesn't even expect you to have to need fertility treatments. We're like, we're just so behind in the expectations of conceiving much less a donor.
Lori Metz: Yeah, that's true. It's hard to wrap my brain around that sometimes because you know, you get so immersed in the fertility world?
Rena: I know it’s just what we know.
Lori Metz: Like 1 in 8 couples struggles.
Lori Metz: That means everybody knows somebody who's struggling. Everywhere I go, people ask me what I do. I inevitably get a story about a struggle a person has had.
Rena: Sure. But you know, remember that's our world too. And it's, it's weird when I go kind of outside our world, I'm always like, oh, you don't know what fertility treatments are? It’s like, how? What? Cause we're so used to it. We breathe it day in and day out but I think society still needs to catch up.
Dara: Yeah. And that's why we're having these discussions. We're trying to normalize, we’re trying to destigmatize, empowering people to have that knowledge and get the support and get it out there. And Lori, you're doing that. It’s pretty remarkable.
Rena: This is why you’re amazing.
Lori Metz: I think the two of you are, I think what you've both done with this podcast, with RMA, is remarkable because to be able to get a large institution to do what the two of you are doing is phenomenal. It's not easy to say it's moving mountains so mutual admiration, but truly it's a huge, a huge thing that you're doing. So thank you.
Rena: Well, thank you so much for coming on. I always love talking to you. I always love these sessions. I feel like we could talk for hours. It’s always good vibes and positivity I think when the three of us are together. So thank you so much for taking the time, coming on, sharing your voice. After this I'm definitely going to go to your Instagram and click over to the petition and sign it.
Dara: Me too!
Lori Metz: Please please! It’s on the LinkedIn profile thing, right? I’m sorry I’m not sure. Bu it’s right there just when you go to bio section, it’s there.
Rena: OK. Thank you.
Lori Metz: Thank you both so much.
Rena: How we end our sessions is everyone saying a gratitude, so do you want to go first?
Lori Metz: Almost going to say what I said last time that I'm so grateful for the two of you. I really am. It's just, I think I get tears in my eyes, but you know, you've both done such remarkable work and just like, Dara, I don't see your face I only see it... But getting to know you better has been just such a joy and I'm so grateful for being able to work in this field. I really am. It means the world to me. So I'm very grateful for that.
Dara: How beautiful. Rena?
Rena: I'm going to say I'm grateful for Dara because Dara introduced me to Lori and connected us. And you know, I'm so grateful to have both of these women and Lori and I just, because we’re both LCSWs, I got my LC over a year ago and Lori was just so kind and helpful and I had all these questions about it and I was so nervous about starting my own practice and whatever and Lori, she was so nice and giving and I feel both these women, it’s just women supporting women. So I'm really, really, truly grateful for that. I love having such amazing colleagues to reach out to who really will just help from the kindness of their hearts and people who just really care. I think Lori’s crying.
Dara: I love, I love
Rena: Lori really truly cares so much.
Lori Metz: You’re such a fabulous therapist. I think anyone who goes to you is blessed! I really do. I really do.
Dara: Oh Lori! Well, it’s funny. I was going to say something similar. I was grateful for connecting with Lori yesterday. I hadn't spoken to her. We text back and forth a little bit, but it was just nice to just hear from her yesterday. And one of the most surprising things is I got the most beautiful voice message from Rena yesterday morning that I picked up that brightened my day. And it was just like, you're on my mind. I'm thinking about you and I miss you. And that alone that warms my hear so thank you ladies.
Rena: Well this has been so nice and so grateful to get all of us together and have good vibes, lots of virtual hugs and thanks everyone for listening. Head over, we'll post everything on our show notes. And feel free if you have questions DM us and we’ll link up to Lori so if you want to contact her . And thank you for tuning in.
Dara: Thank you so much for listening today and always remember: practice gratitude, give a little love to someone else and yourself, and remember you are not alone. Find us on Instagram @fertility_forward and if you're looking for more support visit us at www.rmany.com and tune in next week for more Fertility Forward.